In the first part of the interview with Karin Van Roy, CHRO at Arvesta, we already discussed how the HR landscape has changed. But what role does an office actually play in it?

We previously discussed how you handled remote working during COVID. I found that quite striking because very often, or at least in the first few months after COVID, you constantly heard that people needed to be lured back to the office. We need to make the office environment as pleasant as possible so that we don't force people, but that they're happy to come. Is that something you consciously avoid?

Implicitly, yes. We have Thirsty Thursdays once a month. There's drinks from 4 p.m. On November 6th, we're moving to a different office. There was a short presentation about what it will look like, with ice cream and drinks. It's great to see everyone again. Usually on Tuesdays and Thursdays, because that's when most people are in the office.

That's still non-committal then?

Yes, absolutely. But we do see people coming to that. So people know there's going to be a lot of people and that's pretty nice.

Speaking of the office environment itself. I suppose there is a difference between some hubs and HQ though?

A few, we really try to mimic that. Of course that doesn't go all at once, but in each of the hubs you will find the same type of table, the same colors and decoration. Of course that doesn't go all at once.

Actually, even before Covid, we had started working on three pillars. Engaged people, that goes without saying. But also inspiring workplaces and jobs of the future. I don't want the situation where at some point there are 200 people here who can't work digitally. That's the people's fault, but also the employer's. You have to involve people in everything that's happening. Everyone can do that. Maybe not as quickly, but everyone can. Some people don't want to, but that's their own choice.

For the jobs of the future, we're very focused on automation, robotics, and everything that's on the horizon. We're certainly looking at that, and also how we can meaningfully retrain people so they can focus on other things. I also always see the war for talent, though I don't fully believe in it. I think if you do enough treasure hunting within your own company, there are tons of opportunities. Let's put our Latin into that first instead of complaining that no one wants to work for us.

Then there are inspiring workplaces. Our stores have already been completely revamped. They're now much more pleasant places to work. For example, in September we'll start work on the social spaces in Merksem. In that sense, we were already working very hard on that, and then Covid came along, and that actually fit perfectly into the picture.

What helped us with this was clarifying our purpose. You could say we're important for the agriculture of tomorrow, but suddenly everything was closed. People started thinking: if we run out of grain, there'll be no grain next year. The Ukraine crisis added to that. Suddenly, we became an essential sector. Then we could also tell our people that we're indispensable as a key link in that agricultural chain. People also realized that wine from Chile might not have been the best option. It's still sprayed with substances that have long been banned here, and your carbon footprint. If a ship goes wrong, it's bye-bye wine. That short supply chain is more important than ever. That benefited us as a company, especially for our culture. People realized they were doing something meaningful. Your disbelievers suddenly became believers too.

I heard from another manager who said everyone had to work in the office during Covid. HR warned him they were going to be inspected, but he thought they were actually doing their ironing at home. Just looking at work this old-fashioned way is something I can't stand. If you're really committed and believe in your colleagues, you probably won't do the ironing. Or maybe you will, but if you have a deadline of 11:59 PM, you'll still meet it.

I wonder about that, too. I imagine when you started at HR that they looked at people and human capital differently? It was probably even called differently?

HR. Then it became Personnel and Organization because it became clear that organizing work wasn't so straightforward either. After that, it was basically all sorts of things. It doesn't matter what you call it. People were really judged by Hay points and job descriptions. That's a classification system. From so many points on, you get a car, and from so many points on, you have windows in your office. The most ridiculous thing. You couldn't earn those points; they were really a title.

So you could be a really bad employee with a lot of points and a really good one with few. There was much less of a meritocracy there. It was all much more mechanical. It was truly a corporate thing. I believe in something underlying. Reward systems, but that's not sanctifying. If it didn't fit in the Excel sheet back then, it simply didn't work. Fortunately, all that has changed.

What are some other major differences you see?

The role of the leader. I always say I have the largest team in the company. That's not the 44 people on my team, but actually everyone at Arvesta. Because if a manager doesn't embody your culture or how you interact with people, you have a problem. The world has become more fluid. You can't afford to wait until the next round to adapt. Everyone used to be in their own corner. I think common sense is finally prevailing.

Another difference is that when I started working there, everyone thought the biggest difference was the product. And that's wrong, because then every Golf or iPhone would be equally successful, regardless of the salesperson. Then they said it was the process, but they still saw differences. Suddenly, everyone realized that the biggest difference is made by people. And that's what I consider the most beautiful change.

Important question - how would you describe those changes in terms of the office environment? What is possible today that was totally out of the question back then?

Het vrolijke. Dat het niet allemaal alleen maar serieus moet zijn. We zijn meer de office rond de mens gaan bouwen dan de office rond de functieclassificatie. We zijn ook echt gaan werken rond de verschillende types mensen die je hebt. De stille mensen die graag focussen en alleen werken bijvoorbeeld. Samenkomen is belangrijker want werken kan je eigenlijk van overal doen.

Also community building. Exuding your culture.

In one of the previous episodes, we talked to OTA Insights. They have a ball pool in the office, a music room, ... To where can you go in your opinion?

We also go quite far. For example, we have an employee assistance program. Because you don't walk in here and just think of Arvesta at 8 a.m. and then it's Mom and Dad again at 5 p.m. Your day isn't compartmentalized into hours without problems and hours with problems. As an employer, you can't always do anything about that. But recently I heard a real example of an employer offering divorce coaching during a divorce. In that case, I think you still have to maintain a boundary between your personal and professional life. And if you do something after hours, you shouldn't make it mandatory; you can come along yourself when you feel like it. That's a very important thing for me. Ultimately, we are an employer, and as I mentioned, there's a slight opportunistic side to that. We also have to deliver, meet budgets, and perform. For me, the boundary between personal and professional life is really important.

I find it interesting that you say that boundary needs to be guarded. I recently heard a podcast by Ester Perel. She said the exact opposite. That it's becoming much more blurred, and even that the CEO is taking on a more priestly role. What's your opinion on that?

If someone tells me something, I'll never reject it, but I don't think it's any different or more important than it used to be. You can't expect your leaders to handle everything. Anyone who handles it like a priest probably did the same in the past. I think it's become more fluid because we're generally more open. In the past, people didn't talk if they weren't feeling well, but is that the trend? I don't know.

I just heard you talking about the jobs of the future. How can we guide our employees toward a more digital future, for example? What's your perspective on AI and everything that's happening? What impact do you think AI will have?

That will definitely play a role. I'm getting a great presentation next week about how AI can create a training program based on a number of needs. Why wouldn't we use that? It will never completely replace it, and I think it would be a good copilot.

The future will tell. Then I can only thank you for the interview - very interesting to see everything and be here! Good luck to you all.